Shall we keep the alternative logo?

[tomjaguarpaw]

Currently under https://www.haskell.org/?uwu=true we have a fun alternative logo, implemented in #292. Part of the justification for adding it was that it would be temporary.

It would most certainly be temporary. This is in no way a permanent alternative logo

-- @Tritlo

There is a proposal to remove it based on that assumption. However, there is popular support to keep it. See the thumbs up on these comments:

• Revert alternative logo #320 (comment)
• Revert alternative logo #320 (comment)

Since it's popular, I think we should keep it. It doesn't do any harm. However, since the original justification was that it would be temporary, we really ought to hold a committee vote on making it permanent. So, could committee members please share their opinions?

@Tritlo @angerman @rebeccaskinner @aviaviavi @aaronallen8455 @Kleidukos

[Kleidukos]

I vote to keep it. It appears to be extremely appreciated amongst the community.

[rhendric]

If the committee wants to keep the vtuber logo, what would the committee's opinion be on supporting additional alternate logos promoting other special interests?

My objection is primarily based on the fact that out of all the possible subcultures that are not directly related to Haskell in any way, this particular one would be permanently privileged with an easter egg. Why not have a treatment of the Haskell logo done in the style of an Atari-era title screen? Why not one in a camo print? Why not one in the colors of the pride flag, or one that imitates the Stranger Things logo, or one done in MS Paint with wojacks pointing at it, or one in the style of a Leonardo da Vinci sketch? (I don't think any of these are particularly bad ideas, but if your reaction to any of them is one of displeasure that the Haskell project would set aside official space specifically for that ‘fan base’ even in an easter egg, please consider that the logo under discussion can also have that effect on people.)

If that sounds good to you, let's promote it and encourage the community to make submissions. I would feel good about the official Haskell website marketing itself as, ‘We're Haskell, and there's a place here for the things you're enthusiastic about!’ I do not feel good about the Haskell website marketing itself as, ‘We're Haskell, and there's a place here for vtubers for some reason!’

If more than one alternate logo is not something you want to spend time and resources on thinking about, I urge you to support reverting the original work. The original proposal appears to have been entirely motivated by a trend going around earlier this year, and not by any actual connection between vtuber culture and Haskell culture (unless a prominent Haskell founder or leader is a vtuber now or something?). We did it, we showed the kids we're cool and hip and on trend, and now can we please stick to the original plan and retire it so that people linked to the Haskell page for the first time won't end up with the wrong impression about who the language is for?

---

Edit: An earlier version of this comment used ‘one of the Simons’ as synecdoche for ‘a prominent Haskell founder or leader’, which was intended to be a bit of lighthearted rhetoric, but which was interpreted as meaning that people-not-named-Simon are of less value to the Haskell ecosystem. I didn't intend to imply that interpretation and regret my choice of words.

Edit 2: Hello, internet! If you're here because this comment is being used as an example of whataboutism, you should probably click that link and read that the word means ‘the strategy of responding to an accusation with a counter-accusation instead of a defense against the original accusation.’ It's not a word that applies to any old proposal of additional possibilities; it is specifically a redirection of blame from accused to some purported fault of the accuser. I wasn't being accused of anything so far as I know (well, now I suppose I'm being accused of sophistry, but that wasn't the case before I wrote this comment), so whatever my other faults (pedantry chief among them), that particular term doesn't apply to this comment. Happy to provide the public service of clarifying the meaning of a word!

[aviaviavi]

I vote to keep it.

And yes if others want to submit logo alternatives behind a flag like this too, I'm supportive of that as well.

[Kleidukos]

@rhendric

My objection is primarily based on the fact that out of all the possible subcultures that are not directly related to Haskell in any way, this particular one would be permanently privileged with an easter egg

It's privileged by the fact that someone submitted it out of their own volition, no need to phrase it as if there was a conspiracy.

Why not have a treatment of the Haskell logo done in the style of an Atari-era title screen?

Please open a PR for a logo with an appropriate license for committee vote.

Why not one in a camo print?

Please open a PR for a logo with an appropriate license for committee vote.

Why not one in the colors of the pride flag

Please open a PR for a logo with an appropriate license for committee vote.

or one that imitates the Stranger Things logo,

Please open a PR for a logo with an appropriate license for committee vote.

or one done in MS Paint with wojacks pointing at it

That would be hilarious. Please open a PR for a logo with an appropriate license for committee vote.

or one in the style of a Leonardo da Vinci sketch

I think you know what I'm about to say… Please open a PR for a logo with an appropriate license for committee vote.

if your reaction to any of them is one of displeasure that the Haskell project would set aside official space specifically for that ‘fan base’ even in an easter egg, please consider that the logo under discussion can also have that effect on people.

Our only reaction, by the point, should be quite predictable: Please open a PR for a logo with an appropriate license for committee vote.

If that sounds good to you, let's promote it and encourage the community to make submissions

That sounds good to me, but don't forget we are all volunteers. I can spend time doing that, but can you babysit my niece in exchange, since I would be busy doing something else? Also she only speaks French.

I do not feel good about the Haskell website marketing itself as, ‘We're Haskell, and there's a place here for vtubers for some reason!’

The reason is that someone opened a PR, a lot of people loved it, it was done during a wave of contributions to other projects and we decided to partake in it. I'm sorry to hear you do not feel good about VTubers, but maybe you'd feel better if you submitted a PR for a logo with an appropriate license for committee vote about your particular interest?

If more than one alternate logo is not something you want to spend time and resources on thinking about, I urge you to support reverting the original work

This comment and the rest are a glorious example of Whataboutism that I will probably use in the future, thank you for volunteering your skills in rhetoric. In public nonetheless.

(unless one of the Simons is a vtuber now or something?).

Glad to know that only two people are worth your attention when it comes to a community of researchers, hobbyists and professional programmers. Unfortunately you'll have to send them fan mail directly, as they do not read this Github repository's PRs.

We did it, we showed the kids we're cool and hip and on trend

Sorry gramps, the kids that you seem to loathe and fear are also the ones seating in this committee. There is no "Us vs. Them" rhetoric that can work. I'd ask you to try again but this is becoming tiresome.

and now can we please stick to the original plan so that people linked to the Haskell page for the first time won't end up with the wrong impression about who the language is for?

Which we are you referring to? The community that seems to appreciate this logo, or the committee of which you're not a member?

[rhendric]

That sounds good to me

Would have sufficed. I think you're reading some subtext I didn't intend (it's text communication, it happens, no big deal on my end). Sorry to have touched a nerve or to have been insufficiently measured in my comment.

[Kleidukos]

@rhendric You're excused, but also thanked. After all, your whole four paragraphs of sophistic argumentation were all so important that I felt the need to address everything, and I would hate for you to feel hurt annoyed that we don't take your wojak variation idea for the logo seriously.

[TristanCacqueray]

That logo is great, if it wasn't for this issue I would have forgot about it!

My only suggestion would be to set its height to 200px to preserve the layout and create a nicer effect when adding the uvu arg.

[skade]

Hi, as the person who (with a few others) is responsible for... accidentally never removing the pride month logo at the end of the month on the Rust discord, I want to give my experience. While it was honestly meant for a pride month activity, the thinking was that if we're ready to flag pride - why only at certain times?

It has lead to a tiny bit of normalisation of the fact that Rust has diverse subcultures. Of course, not each and every subculture will have their logo everywhere. It would be an insurmountable effort. I've only ever seen abstract criticism of that fact, under the cover of an abstract, global fairness. We had the obvious troll attacks, but that was it.

What I've seen though is a huge amount of people that noted this nod and are happy about it. The willingness to be a bit odd, queer, or whatever. It's also not more than that: it's a nod. It's cheap, easy to maintain and certainly not some kind of agenda driven activity.

It's not a violation of any moral contract to make something as small as this permanent, given how much people seem to like it. It has certainly resonated across multiple communities.

I like quirky Haskell.

[aaronallen8455]

I vote in favor of keeping it.

[SamirTalwar]

I would love to see all the alternative easter egg logos mentioned here!

Of course, we need to start with one. And we already have a good candidate (it made me chuckle when I saw it, and I have no idea what a vtuber is). I vote for keeping it and encouraging anyone who wants to submit a new one to do so.

[kakkun61]

I think that it will be a good time to remove uwu logo when it will be an obstacle on updating the web pages.

I understand that "temporally" means no effort to keep uwu logo.

[cojay19]

i like the alternative logo, as long as it doesn't bother anyone i vote to keep it, please! :)

[rebeccaskinner]

I also vote in favor of keeping it.

It's a bit of fun that might just be the thing that puts someone over the edge to giving Haskell a try, and it's not technically burdensome to support it, so I don't see any reason to remove it.

As for other alternate logos, the committee decided to add this one on a one-off basis when someone made a PR. If we actually start getting more PRs for them in practice then it might make sense to come up with some sort of process or policy. For now, it seems like just evaluating adding and removing them on a case-by-case basis is adequate.

[sebastian-j-ibanez]

Personally I prefer the original. The alternative is not as clean.

That being said, I don't hate the alternative logo.