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chore(archive): perform canonical audit on Jen Myers and Katrina Owen
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_data/transcripts/interview-with-jen-myers-general.yml

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Well, thank you very much for sitting down.
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Absolutely.
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Thank you.
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speaker_map:
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M1:
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name: Mike Hall
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role: Interviewer, community organizer at UGtastic
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S1:
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name: Jen Myers
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role: Digital Native Designer and Developer, Speaker at Relevance
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turns:
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- speaker: M1
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text: Hi, I'm Mike with UGtastic. I'm here again at SCNA. I'm sitting down with
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Jen Myers from Relevance. You're a designer—a digital native designer—and you
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speak to technical audiences, programmers, and developers, as well as designers.
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I believe there's probably a big difference between those two audiences. Do you
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see any difference when you speak to them?
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- speaker: S1
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text: There are some differences, and I'm definitely more comfortable in the 'techie'
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community, for lack of a better term. That's where I started and where I feel
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most at home. When I speak to designers, I actually feel a little bit like I'm
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on the other side because I spend so much time in the technical landscape. But
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there are definitely differences. I know a lot of people in the UX community,
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which is almost a subset of the larger design community. They work with different
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mediums—some are product designers—but it's still interesting to find the common
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ground. It sometimes just takes a little more work to figure out a designer's
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perspective and what medium they work in compared to the tech community.
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- speaker: S1
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text: I do think designers tend to see a larger sense of things. Not to say tech
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people are narrow-minded—not at all—but designers like to have the large picture
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and know how everything fits together. I'm like that myself. That's one thing
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I like to talk to developers about, because it's easy to get wrapped up in details.
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Details are important, but having larger context is vital, whether you're building
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a product or dealing with a community.
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- speaker: M1
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text: You used the term 'digital native designer.' What does that mean?
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- speaker: S1
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text: That's a term I've started to coin to describe myself. I am a designer who
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works in software, but I don't have a formal design background. I didn't come
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from a print background and then learn to do it; I learned design by learning
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HTML back in 2001. I started in a digital landscape. Everything I've learned about
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design theory and principles has always been applied digitally. I've done some
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print projects, but they are more of a struggle because I'm used to the flexibility
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of digital. I get nervous with print because I can't change it afterward! A 'digital
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native designer' understands how design specifically works in this digital medium,
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with all its unique implementations and needs.
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- speaker: M1
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text: When you talk to technical audiences, is there anything that is particularly
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hard to get across? Something that just doesn't click?
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- speaker: S1
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text: Universally, I have really good experiences talking to developers. I've spoken
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about this at many conferences and I always have developers come up to talk to
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me. They often ask how they can learn, and many feel like they can't. I don't
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think there's any one thing holding them back other than not knowing where to
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start. It's about how we are educating people and sharing information. Designers
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need to be more explicit and clear so that developers understand, but pretty much
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universally, the developers I talk to are really interested in learning these
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things on their own.
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- speaker: M1
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text: SCNA is a polyglot conference, but you've also spoken at Ruby-specific events.
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Do you notice signature styles between different platforms, like .NET vs. iOS
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vs. Rails? And now with Bootstrap becoming so ubiquitous—does that concern you?
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- speaker: S1
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text: It doesn't really concern me. I think it's okay. Bootstrap isn't the solution
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for everything, but in many situations, it makes sense to use it. There are different
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solutions for different problems. As long as people are still going back to those
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design foundations and staying in touch with the collaborative process, it's fine.
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It's about making deliberate decisions. If you're just doing things unthinkingly
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because everyone else does, that's probably not the best thing. But developing
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platform-specific solutions isn't bad as long as we continue to think deliberately
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about them.
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- speaker: M1
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text: Well, thank you very much for sitting down with me.
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- speaker: S1
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text: Absolutely. Thank you.
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insights:
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- statement: 'The ''Digital Native Designer'' represents a shift in the industry:
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practitioners who learned design through the constraints and capabilities of code
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(HTML/CSS) rather than traditional print mediums, leading to a deeper understanding
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of digital interactivity and flexibility.'
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type: durable
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confidence: high
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- statement: Designers bring value to technical teams not just through aesthetics,
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but by maintaining the 'large picture' context—ensuring that small technical details
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align with the overall product and community goals.
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type: durable
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confidence: high
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- statement: The primary barrier for developers learning design isn't a lack of aptitude,
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but a lack of accessible starting points and clear, explicit communication from
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the design community.
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type: durable
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confidence: high
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- statement: Standardized UI frameworks like Bootstrap are not inherently harmful
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to design diversity as long as they are chosen as a deliberate solution for a
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specific problem rather than an unthinking default.
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type: durable
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confidence: medium
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- statement: Design principles are universal, but the medium (print vs. digital) fundamentally
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changes the process; digital design requires an embrace of change and resizing
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that traditional print design often fears.
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type: durable
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confidence: high
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youtube:
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title: 'Digital Native Design: Jen Myers on Bridging the Gap Between Code and Context
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| SCNA 2013'
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description: Mike Hall sits down with Jen Myers at SCNA 2013 to explore the concept
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of the 'digital native designer.' They discuss why designers are essential for
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maintaining product context, the common misconceptions developers have about their
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own ability to learn design, and why ubiquitous frameworks like Bootstrap are
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a deliberate tool rather than a threat to creativity.
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tags:
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- Design for Developers
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- Digital Native
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- UX
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- Software Craftsmanship
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- SCNA 2013
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- Bootstrap
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- HTML/CSS
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- Product Strategy
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chapters:
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- timestamp: '00:00'
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title: Introduction and Technical Communities
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- timestamp: '01:30'
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title: 'The Designer''s Perspective: Context vs. Details'
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- timestamp: '02:45'
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title: Defining the Digital Native Designer
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- timestamp: '04:30'
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title: Why Developers Can (and Want to) Learn Design
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- timestamp: '06:15'
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title: Signature Styles and the Rise of Bootstrap
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- timestamp: '08:00'
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title: Making Deliberate Design Decisions

_data/transcripts/interview-with-katrina-owen-general.yml

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user groups with lots to say interviews and more no way sharing great ideas in the tech community
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fascinating conversations a plethora of information find out for yourself today at ucdastic.com
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foreign
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speaker_map:
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M1:
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name: Mike Hall
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role: Interviewer, community organizer at UGtastic
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S1:
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name: Katrina Owen
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role: Developer and Open Source Contributor, Creator of Exercism.io
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turns:
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- speaker: M1
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text: Hi, it's Mike with UGtastic. I'm here at SCNA 2013 and I'm sitting down with
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Katrina Owen, who is going to be giving a talk called 'Here Be Dragons.' You're
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the last talk of the sessions, so I wanted to make sure we caught up now. 'Here
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Be Dragons'—what does that mean?
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- speaker: S1
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text: It's a reference to old mapmaking where explorers would draw dragons in the
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parts where they didn't know what was there. My talk is a code review, so it's
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a metaphor for all the scary things you don't know are in the code. I'm using
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an anonymized version of production code I ran into a couple of years ago.
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- speaker: M1
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text: Does the person who wrote it know you're doing this?
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- speaker: S1
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text: No, hence anonymized. It's actually kind of awkward because they weren't on
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the team when the bug was reported. I started looking at the code, and it was
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crazy, so I asked around the office to see who wrote it. Nobody recalled writing
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it! When I finally checked git blame, I found out who it was, and they truly had
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no recollection. That happens when you have thousands of lines of code over years.
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And sometimes, you check git blame and the 'idiot' who wrote the code was actually
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you.
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- speaker: M1
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text: That's a good reminder to be kind, especially when the person who wrote it
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might be sitting right next to you. What makes this specific code worth a talk?
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- speaker: S1
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text: The code is so bad it has a punchline, but I really use it as an excuse to
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talk about the people issues. We have a tendency toward the Fundamental Attribution
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Error—assuming code is terrible because the author is 'stupid' rather than understanding
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the pressures they were under. Maybe they were new to the language, or under a
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tight deadline, or just really tired. If we knew the pressures, we would assume
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they wrote it that way for a passing, temporary reason.
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- speaker: M1
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text: There was a recent situation on Twitter where someone was blasted for a first-time
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open source contribution, and it was quite harsh. It made people think about being
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kinder. Is that the line you're walking?
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- speaker: S1
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text: 'I do tear this code apart because it makes a good story, but in real life,
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I try to be both kind and realistic. I look at the code and ask questions about
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context: ''What trade-offs did you consider? Why did you go in this direction?''
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Sometimes they say, ''I didn''t know that method existed,'' and I learn something
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too. Other times, they had a constraint I didn''t see. We aren''t fixed points
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of intelligence; we flex based on context.'
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- speaker: M1
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text: So the point is to be context-aware rather than context-free.
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- speaker: S1
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text: Exactly. Stay aware of the fact that there is context. Let that inform the
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questions you ask rather than the judgments you make.
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- speaker: M1
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text: I think that's a great point. One goal of these interviews is to humanize
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people who are otherwise only known through technical personas or online handles,
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where they can sometimes be abused because people forget they are human. We all
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make mistakes and fumble.
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- speaker: S1
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text: The reason I wanted to do this talk is that I'm actually very bad at empathy.
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People talk about it constantly, but I can't always conceive of what they mean.
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However, when you explain it as 'asking about the pressures rather than making
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judgments about who they are,' I can do that. I know how to ask questions. That
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is a concrete way I can practice empathy, even if I'm someone who is naturally
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quick to judge.
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- speaker: M1
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text: If we can feel frustration with the code, we can probably bet the author was
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frustrated writing it too. It all comes back to context.
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- speaker: S1
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text: Yeah. Thank you for having me.
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- speaker: M1
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text: Thank you, Katrina.
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insights:
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- statement: 'The Fundamental Attribution Error in software: Developers often attribute
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''bad code'' to the author''s lack of intelligence (dispositional) rather than
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the external pressures, deadlines, or lack of knowledge at the time (situational).'
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type: durable
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confidence: high
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- statement: 'Empathy as a technical practice: For those who find the abstract concept
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of empathy difficult to grasp, it can be operationalized as ''asking about the
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pressures and constraints of the author'' rather than making character judgments.'
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type: durable
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confidence: high
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- statement: 'The ''Git Blame Paradox'': The emotional distance provided by technical
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tools can lead to harsh judgments of others, yet we often find ourselves being
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the very authors of the code we once criticized.'
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type: durable
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confidence: high
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- statement: 'Code review should be a dialogue of discovery: Asking ''Why did you
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go in this direction?'' often reveals hidden architectural constraints that the
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reviewer was unaware of.'
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type: durable
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confidence: high
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- statement: 'Intelligence is not a fixed point: A developer''s performance varies
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significantly based on current context (tiredness, personal stress, environment),
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and code represents only a single snapshot of that fluctuating capability.'
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type: durable
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confidence: medium
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youtube:
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title: 'Here Be Dragons: Katrina Owen on Operationalizing Empathy in Code Review
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| SCNA 2013'
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description: Mike Hall sits down with Katrina Owen (creator of Exercism.io) at SCNA
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2013 to discuss her talk 'Here Be Dragons.' They explore the psychology of code
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review, the 'Fundamental Attribution Error' that leads us to judge other developers
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too harshly, and how to practice empathy by asking about constraints and pressures
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rather than making character judgments.
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tags:
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- Code Review
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- Software Craftsmanship
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- Katrina Owen
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- Exercism
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- Empathy in Tech
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- SCNA 2013
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- Git Blame
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- Psychology of Programming
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chapters:
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- timestamp: '00:00'
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title: Introduction and Mapmaking Metaphors
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- timestamp: '01:15'
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title: The Git Blame Surprise
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- timestamp: '02:30'
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title: The Fundamental Attribution Error
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- timestamp: '04:15'
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title: 'Walking the Line: Critique vs. Kindness'
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- timestamp: '06:00'
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title: Operationalizing Empathy for the Logical Mind
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- timestamp: '08:15'
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title: Intelligence as a Fluctuating State

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