Sega Channel and Steam Releases coming through on No-Intro Megadrive/Genesis Dats with exclusions set

[updawg]

Describe the bug
I believe Sega Channel and Steam releases should be filtered when everything but games is selected in the exclusions section. I would believe this would fall under Applications/Aftermarket.

Also seems Tyrannosaurus Tex which appears to be an unreleased aftermarket game slipped through as well on Gameboy color. I can open a separate bug report if need be.

To reproduce
Steps to reproduce the behavior. Use the screenshot below for the exclusions selected.

Expected behavior
Sega channel and steam releases should be filtered.

Operating system

• Windows 11 25H2

Retool edition

• retoolgui.exe

Retool version
2.4.8

Global excludes:

Global includes:
NA
System excludes:
NA
System includes:
NA
What other settings are you using?

[unexpectedpanda]

I get where you're coming from in terms of modern rereleases being treated as aftermarket, including those from Steam. That's something I can look into changing.

Sega Channel, however, doesn't qualify as aftermarket -- it was a service that operated during the lifespan of the console. None of the titles in the screenshots are applications either, they are all games, and so valid for inclusion with your settings. If you don't want them in your output DAT file, you can exclude them by going to the Overrides tab, and adding (Sega Channel) in the Exclude box.

As an aside: the Genesis clone list hasn't been meaningfully updated since March 2024. I plan to update that clone list one more time to extend Retool's relevance, but you shouldn't rely on this continuing.

Also seems Tyrannosaurus Tex which appears to be an unreleased aftermarket game slipped through as well on Gameboy color. I can open a separate bug report if need be.

I guess unreleased and sold after console lifespan fulfills the definition of aftermarket. However that's a discussion you'll need to take up with No-Intro by filing a ticket on the entry in Dat-o-matic. They can decide whether or not to add the (Aftermarket) tag that Retool filters on.

[updawg]

I appreciate the response back! Understood on all fronts. I was assuming since the sega channel was an actual device you plugged in like the 32x it would be treated differently, maybe like the satellaview?

[waeggyfr]

Thanks for the great and comprehensive bug report. I had as well a closer look into it:

• GBC game Tyrannosaurus Tex is not a pure aftermarket game. It was almost done during lifespan of the GBC (until 2003) Info so it is more a hybrid (official/aftermarket)
• Sega Channel is definitely an official game source during lifespan which @unexpectedpanda already mentioned
• the Steam version Zool Redimensioned released in 2021 is truly an aftermarket game, even when the development team claimed that this game was already made for Amiga in 1992, but this version is a makeover / remaster. Here i fully agree with @updawg

For the last point we should use the override tab and adding „(Steam)“ to the exclude box.

The other thing which I observed in the Genesis dat is the game 16t which is twice:
16t (Japan) (Game no Kanzume Otokuyou) <- Sega Games Can, compilation for the western area, 1994
16t (Japan) (Sega Game Toshokan) <- Sega Game Library via modem, 1991

both games are the same in file size and gameplay, which one can be kept or filtered out?
I tend to keep the latest released one in the lifespan of the system, but to specify a priority will be quite difficult. So a manual check afterwards is recommended.

I do this usually with the tool ARRM by Franck P. as double check method to easily search for duplicates and decide based on the history of the game. In the upper case of the game 16t I would chose the Sega Game Toshokan, because retool is set to single games, no compilations and based on the history it was the first game released via SegaNet and therefore the most played one.
The fact that Video Game History Foundation could save these roms deserves the honor to chose that version.
If I would prefer more compilations then the 16t Game no Kanzume Otokuyu is the one I would pick.

@unexpectedpanda
Thanks for creation of this tool and the large amount of time you already spent for it. Hopefully someone is willing to take it over or at least maintain this wonderful project, because there is nothing comparable out there to filter 1G1R....even not AI.

[rafaeldpb]

The other thing which I observed in the Genesis dat is the game 16t which is twice: 16t (Japan) (Game no Kanzume Otokuyou) <- Sega Games Can, compilation for the western area, 1994 16t (Japan) (Sega Game Toshokan) <- Sega Game Library via modem, 1991

both games are the same in file size and gameplay, which one can be kept or filtered out? I tend to keep the latest released one in the lifespan of the system, but to specify a priority will be quite difficult. So a manual check afterwards is recommended.

(Game no Kanzume...) are compilations for Mega-CD of Sega Game Toshokan games. It is marked as Modern Edition. If it is showing after filtering there is a bug somewhere.

[waeggyfr]

The other thing which I observed in the Genesis dat is the game 16t which is twice: 16t (Japan) (Game no Kanzume Otokuyou) <- Sega Games Can, compilation for the western area, 1994 16t (Japan) (Sega Game Toshokan) <- Sega Game Library via modem, 1991
both games are the same in file size and gameplay, which one can be kept or filtered out? I tend to keep the latest released one in the lifespan of the system, but to specify a priority will be quite difficult. So a manual check afterwards is recommended.

(Game no Kanzume...) are compilations for Mega-CD of Sega Game Toshokan games. It is marked as Modern Edition. If it is showing after filtering there is a bug somewhere.

I changed just the options below, all others are default.

that´s true...thanks for the link @rafaeldpb
So there is for sure a bug, because for sega genesis none of the modern editions is filtered out. Retro Bit is also included.
I just checked NES as well and here I have some of the modern games included:

Finally I tested most of the Exclusions and Options if something will change...just the option:
Optimize for least possible title duplication
reduced Sega Genesis from 978 roms to 977 roms by deleting one of the 16t games. all the other modernEditions are still included.

Now trying to figure out where the "internal-config.json" will be used...

[unexpectedpanda]

Modern editions aren't filtered out based on any options you might set (short of manual excludes or post filters). By default, if a title exists that supports your language and region choice that isn't a modern edition that will be prioritized during the title comparison stage. There are scenarios where the modern editions win in the title comparison stage. for example, in the following situation:

• You prefer English titles from the USA
• An original variant of a title was released during the console's lifetime only in Japan, and is in Japanese
• A modern edition of the title was released after the console's lifetime in the USA that supports English

Then the modern edition is selected.

I suspect there's no bug here, just an expectation that modern editions get treated like aftermarket, and that there's an out of date clone list I need to attend to.

[waeggyfr]

@unexpectedpanda
Many thanks for detailed explanation. If you need help for the clone list, just give some hints what to do ;)

Edit: found it https://unexpectedpanda.github.io/retool/contribute-clone-lists/

[waeggyfr]

Just to see how it looks like:
to the internal-config.json file was added under

"demoteEditions" --> ["(Sega Game Toshokan)", "string"]
which will allow the new added Saga Game Library via modem
Now all the compilations Game no Kanzume Vol.1, Vol.2 and Otokuyou will be sorted out to give Sega Game Toshokan a higher priority

Found:

• 16t (Japan) (Sega Game Toshokan)
• Fatal Labyrinth (USA, Europe) (En,Ja)
• Flicky (USA, Europe)
• Game no Kanzume Otokuyou (Japan) (Sega Channel)
• Hyper Marbles (Japan) (Sega Game Toshokan)
• Ikasuze! Koi no Doki Doki Penguin Land MD (Japan) (Sega Game Toshokan)
• Medal City (Japan) (Sega Game Toshokan)
• Paddle Fighter (Japan) (Sega Game Toshokan)
• Putter Golf (Japan) (Sega Game Toshokan)
• Pyramid Magic (Japan) (Sega Game Toshokan)
• Robot Battler (Japan) (Sega Game Toshokan)
• Teddy Boy Blues (Japan) (Sega Game Toshokan)

"modernEditions" --> ["(Ratalaika Games)", "string"]
which was missing as a modern edition, for the game Advanced Busterhawk Gley Lancer it was choosen the world version even when it is aftermarket, but verified dump compared to the Japan version.
For me it looks like a good choice, but maybe there are different opinions out there.

Advanced Busterhawk Gley Lancer.txt

[unexpectedpanda]

Edit: found it https://unexpectedpanda.github.io/retool/contribute-clone-lists/

You did indeed :) Unfortunately I haven't documented how internal-config.json works, but you're making good progress experimenting :)

[unexpectedpanda]

Genesis clone list and internal-config.json have been updated. There's still work to do here in terms of letting people remove modern editions. Still considering whether making them act as aftermarket is the right thing to do -- if I do, I might have to add a warning that this includes English translations of games released during the console's lifespan.

I might also have to think on treating World as a USA/Europe/Japan equivalent, judging by the results I'm seeing in Sega Channel titles turning up over physical console releases (not a bad thing, just an observation). IIRC right now that equalization is only done for compilations, deferring to user region order for individual titles.

[waeggyfr]

@unexpectedpanda Amazing how fast you are. 😲
Yesterday I started with the clone-list….but now yours is ready 😃

In my opinion the modern edition is most of the time a 1:1 clone of the original one, just translated…this should not be treated as aftermarket, even when it was outside the lifspan of the console. But you are right, in case it will be not a 1:1 version, then it is difficult to differentiate.
How about an option in Retools:
Don’t accept modern editions (English translation, World)

If checked, it will sort it out and treated as Aftermarket

If not checked = default

World = USA/Europe/Japan is a great idea!

[Jaylinx]

Hello, I just want to add a few more observations without creating another topic. I have the same options as [waeggyfr]

On NES:

• Double Dragon III has both Japanese and US version. Aren't they the same game ?

On SNES:

• NBA Jam is considered as a clone of NBA Jam Tournament Edition. They are 2 separate games.
• Ultimate Fighter and Hiryuu no Ken S - Golden Fighter appears both, one is the US version, the other is the japanese version of the same game

On FDS:

• Zelda games with (Collector's Edition) are prioritized over the regular edition.
• Super Mario Bros. 2 (Japan) (En) (Game & Watch - Super Mario Bros.) appears with the original one.

On Genesis

• Dyna Brothers 2 and Monster World IV with (Virtual Console) are prioritized over the regular edition

Also, (Metal Gear Collection) and (Zelda Collection) makes these games appearing twice. I have the original one and the collection one.

I still have a few Switch games, don't know if they mean to be modern rereleases or not

[unexpectedpanda]

I just want to add a few more observations without creating another topic.

This should have been a separate issue, as it's not focused on the same topic.

On NES:

• Double Dragon III has both Japanese and US version. Aren't they the same game ?

Thanks, added to the clone list.

On SNES:

• NBA Jam is considered as a clone of NBA Jam Tournament Edition. They are 2 separate games.

There's always going to be subjective choices made in clone lists, it's just the nature of the beast. To me, TE is like a special edition of the original. To keep the original, add it to an include list.

• Ultimate Fighter and Hiryuu no Ken S - Golden Fighter appears both, one is the US version, the other is the japanese version of the same game

Thanks, added to the clone list. Hyper Version has been made a superset.

On FDS:

• Zelda games with (Collector's Edition) are prioritized over the regular edition.

Looks like this was a GameCube release that included multiple games. Since Collector's Edition is such a generic phrase, this isn't as easy as adding it to the modernEditions array in internal-config.json. For now I've worked around it by making the Collector's Edition titles lower priority in the appropriate clone list, but this needs new functionality to be built to handle it properly.

• Super Mario Bros. 2 (Japan) (En) (Game & Watch - Super Mario Bros.) appears with the original one.

Thanks, added to the clone list.

On Genesis

• Dyna Brothers 2 and Monster World IV with (Virtual Console) are prioritized over the regular edition

• Dyna Brothers 2 Special (Japan) (Virtual Console) is a superset that contains more content. It will always be selected. There is no option to exclude or force demote modern edition titles that are supersets at this point in time.
• Monster World IV is selected because it supports English. If Monster World IV (Japan) supports English, then No-Intro needs to update the filename to Monster World IV (Japan) (En). There is no option to exclude or force demote modern edition titles that support your preferred language at this point in time.

Also, (Metal Gear Collection) and (Zelda Collection) makes these games appearing twice. I have the original one and the collection one.

These are new since the last clone list update. I've added these tags specifically to internal-config.json.

I want to emphasize that the last round of clone list updates I did was a bonus gift. Clone lists are very unlikely to receive future updates. This is why I've kept up the notice about Retool not being maintained.

The NES DAT is the biggest reason I don't do this any more. It's become a complete mess -- an unrelenting tidal wave of pirate, aftermarket, and ROM rips that absolutely should be split off into their own DAT/s. It's just not worth my time to chase with clone list updates.

I still have a few Switch games, don't know if they mean to be modern rereleases or not

There is no feature to always remove modern editions. You will see them in the following conditions:

• If they are the only variant of the game available
• If they are the only variant that supports one of your preferred languages
• If they are specified as a superset

[Goratrix]

Just want to clarify these points:

the Steam version Zool Redimensioned released in 2021 is truly an aftermarket game, even when the development team claimed that this game was already made for Amiga in 1992, but this version is a makeover / remaster.

This is not true, the Steam rom is just a modification, you can easily see it when you do a hex compare of Zool - Ninja of the 'Nth' Dimension (USA) and Zool Redimensioned (World) (Steam). Current retool clone logic is correct.

Monster World IV is selected because it supports English. If Monster World IV (Japan) supports English, then No-Intro needs to update the filename to Monster World IV (Japan) (En).

Can confirm Retool is correct here also, the Japanese Monster World IV is not in English, so the modern translated releases are correctly prioritized.